English translation of the French transcript, made with AI and not yet proofread — click a paragraph to jump to it. Show the French original
Beginning with the middle: Schubert against Beethoven 0:00 I'll keep one on because it's a bit chilly.
0:30 Yes, very good. It's very good. Indeed, it's much better than me, actually. But for reasons of comfort, the goal being to... I understood, I put my computer on my lap. The beard suits you well. This one here is a bit unkempt, but that's the period. Yes, but it suits you very well. That's kind of you. I'm delighted we can continue. It's mainly that you enjoy it.
1:02 Yes, might as well. I had suggested to you, but well, this is informal, but I had suggested picking back up on the figure of Schubert because there's something we touched on but didn't develop further. And which seems to me very important. To be clear, we're not going to do a history of music in a linear, chronological way. I don't know, we could try to reflect on what music must have been like for Neanderthal man.
1:34 We'd have a good year's worth of idle speculation over that. So I'm going to go through everything that's supposed to make up the material of a history of music, but not in order — that comes later. Yes. That's it. So, for me, the ideal is to start in the middle. I mentioned it to you. Yes. The middle having the advantage of touching on two periods, one earlier and one later.
2:10 For this middle, I have two cases that stand at this mediating moment. It's Schubert, and it's the second act of The Mastersingers. Rather something specific I'll talk about in the second act of The Mastersingers. Two figures. What I'm about to say sounds a bit abstract, but it's very concrete once you actually listen to the music in question. I'm taking these two cases because with them we're sure to cover the whole spectrum, since they're exactly the inverse of one another.
2:46 With Schubert, we have a deadly dead end. Well, we have a temptation toward a deadly dead end. I'll come back to that. Which he triumphs over in the lied form. I'll come back to that too. When he allows himself to untie — there's no other word — all these problems in the flow of song.
3:20 And in particular of the Volkslied. Quite right. Whereas with Wagner, on the contrary, it's in an indefinite, continuous melody, which doesn't at all have the formal unity of the Volkslied, which is a permanent song and not a song in the ordinary sense. Yes, yes, that's true. There you go. So I'm taking both — why? I'll start with Schubert.
3:50 We talked about this enough last time. Just as Saussure clearly saw that linguistic relevance operates through opposition, that it rests on discrimination — what allows me to distinguish and oppose one word from another — we had characterized Schubert not by opposing him in a conflictual sense, but by cutting him out as a figure against a Beethovenian ground, for example.
4:21 To show the contrast. Not conflict at all, but contrast. Namely that Schubert is a peak of lyricism, whereas Beethoven is an incomparable dramatist. Yes, yes, quite right. And here we find again the confrontation between two genres that, since antiquity, have been clearly separated. Pindar's ode, the purely lyrical, and the Eumenides.
4:51 Yes, yes, quite right. It's not quite the same approach. Quite right. There you go, but I give you the floor whenever you like. No, with, indeed, an underlying heightened dialecticity in Beethoven, and at the same time a heroic attempt to oppose that dialecticity — a bit like what we see in Kierkegaard with respect to Hegel, to draw an analogy. All the Kierkegaards, the Lundbergs and the Jean Passe types who opposed with the figure — precisely, the subject against reconciliation, against the Hegelian reconciliation, against the...
5:29 Indeed, it's also the period. I think it's not just an analogy. There you go, no, it's no coincidence. It's no coincidence that I place my pairing, Schubert-Wagner, between the beginning and the end of the 19th century. We agree on that. There's the emergence of modernity in all this. Quite right. Except that with Schubert, we're still very close to archaism. I'm thinking again of the Volkslied, deliberately, and with which we haven't finished.
6:00 It comes back in Mahler, insistently, and so on. We'll see later. But what interests me here, coming back to what's specific to Schubert, is that he does everything not to be Schubert and to try to be Beethoven in many works. Yes, that's what touches on the other side. Like his whole generation. Poor Schumann, I'd say. Schumann was so crushed by the Beethovenian example that he didn't touch the symphony for a very long time.
6:34 He had composed almost the whole of his piano works before writing his first symphony. Liszt had to tell him, 'For heaven's sake, I want to hear something of yours with trumpet and timpani.' Yes, it's true that compared to the profusion of Schumann's lieder and short piano pieces, there are only four symphonies in the end. There you go, there you go. And so the symphony Spring, the first one, in B-flat, was nicknamed Spring after an allusion to Jean Paul's Flegeljahre. I'm not sure if that's it.
7:06 It ended up being composed under pressure from the generous Liszt, who said to himself, 'But really, a fellow like you, Schumann, you should...' Well, he had to try his hand at the orchestra. Dash it all! Yes, quite right. Besides, we find the common point between Liszt and Schumann: it's indeed Schubert whom both of them rehabilitated. Of course, of course, his neat little transcriptions by Liszt, of course. No, but I mean, Brahms too was in Beethoven's shadow — the time it took him as well to bring out his first symphony.
The lied form subverts the sonata form 7:38 Yes, that's true. He didn't dare, he simply didn't dare. So, back to Schubert. How does he get out of it? That's what interests me here, this specific case in Schubert now. For the moment, I'll speak of what he has in common with the other Romantics. He gets out of it by giving us the impression — you know, 'I'm going to do something Beethovenian. I'm going to make a sonata form, a first theme, watch out, that fits into the tradition, so to speak.' And not only in the sonatas, even in the impromptus.
8:10 I'm thinking of the Impromptu in F minor. I don't know, let's see. Yes, we can't hear it here, that's true. We'll put it on, there. I'll take the headphones off. Well then. Well then, it doesn't want to come out. Excuse me a second. There. So. It's well known, isn't it.
8:40 The very first, well the fifth actually, of the second set. So, he starts with something rather Beethovenian, assertive like that, with a somewhat jostled development. And all of a sudden — well, not quite all of a sudden — he lets this development settle in. It's a bit laborious, as is often the case with Schubert at the start. Right?
9:11 Look at the beginning of the admirable manifold quintet, the Quintet in C, with two cellos. There again, before that incomparable theme, that incomparable lied, emerges — before it emerges, and it's the one that's going to order the whole movement, guide it — there's a whole staging, if you will, an initial, laborious preamble.
9:42 Yes, quite right. And, well, even in the impromptu, which isn't a grand form like the symphony or the sonata, even in the impromptu I'm talking about, I counted that you have to wait until measure 68 for there suddenly to be a transition, a complete change of... Already, you'd say a feeling, Gefühl, how would one put it... Stimmung, Stimmung. There, Schubert fits that very well, Stimmung, especially since it has an auditory connotation, Stimme — it's really better than 'atmosphere,' which it's too often translated as, or 'ambiance,' which makes you think of a nightclub rather than Schubert.
10:27 So, a complete change of Stimmung, and suddenly a melody appears, but of such simplicity. Sorry. It's miraculously simple. It's a song that has been untied.
10:57 There's no longer any attempt at Beethovenian construction, at agogics, dramatization, contrast between low and high registers, fast and slow — that's over. There's a calm horizontality to the song. You'd think he'd heeded Nerval's wise counsel to let the flowers of poetry drift on the current of streams. Yes, that's characteristic, exactly that. I'm thinking of the late Nerval, who writes to Arsène Houssaye, to his friend Houssaye, saying, 'You ask me to send you my first poems' — the other wanted to compile them — 'my first poems, there's nothing left in me but an obstinate prose writer.'
11:39 let the flowers of poetry drift on the current of streams. Sorry. No, but it's true there's this style that only appears with him. Maybe we'll find it again in Debussy, maybe, but that... Because... Aquatic, in fact. You see it, for example, I don't know, Moment Musical No. 4. It's really the impression of the running brook, which doesn't... It's recurrent in Schubert, this figure of the flowing water.
12:11 There you go, that's it. It's always clear, first of all because trout only frolic in clear waters, no? Trout, yes, that's true. I'm drawing this out on purpose — it seems like a metaphor, but in fact it's literal too. It's not at all, it's not... It's not the Schumannian torrent, which can be a nocturnal torrent, where Schumann has a strategy of flight. You often hear that in Schumann. A dotted rhythm like that.
Glenn Gould, Richter, and Schubertian hypnosis 12:41 a fantastical ride during which he tramples on his own shadow as he flees. It's not that. Schubert is still water. Yes, quite right. It's still, less contrasted. Hence Glenn Gould's difficulties with Schubert. I take the liberty of pointing this out because it's an extraordinary and extremely rare document — a pianist humiliating himself to that degree, which actually shows his greatness.
13:12 Ah yes, when you speak of Richter, no? Yes, because he takes Schubert as his example. After saying there are two great kinds of performers — those who bring out all the instrument's possibilities, the Horowitzes, the Heifetzes, the Paganinis, the Liszts, no doubt — and then those who efface themselves behind the instrument to put the listener directly in communion with the composer. And the greatest of those, among the living, is Richter, he says. Now, he says, I must make a confession. Understood, a bit painful.
13:43 I don't like Schubert. There you go. How can you admit such a thing when you're one of the greatest pianists of the century? It's a bit... I've always found there were, I quote, longueurs in him, mawkishness, repetitions. I was talking about still, repetitive things. Right? His demon whispers away constantly. I even believe Brendel himself didn't play all of Schubert's variations. He doesn't have... And yet we owe him...
14:13 Who's that? Brendel, Alfred Brendel. Ah, I see. You understand. Brendel, sorry. Yes, of course. To whom we owe all the sonatas. Yes, yes. He's a Schubertian reference. But of course, yes, it's the... After a while, there's a discouraging aspect one has to admit. And precisely, he specifies — precisely, he specifies regarding these repetitions and longueurs. He hasn't yet caught up with Schumann, who had understood that these were the famous divine longueurs. Literally, in fact, celestial, himmlische Längen.
14:44 Right. Celestial length. He ends up saying: until I heard it performed by Sviatoslav Richter. There couldn't have been a worse example than the one I cited at the start. That is, he tackled the last sonata in B-flat. Yes, well, yes. The first movement. One of the longest, if not the longest, of all sonata forms, symphonies included.
15:16 And on top of that, Richter takes it at a desperately slow tempo. So there was really everything there to repel him. And he says, I was, well I won't say, riveted from start to finish. And I understood that Schubert's genius lay in hypnosis. Yes, quite right. So now we reclaim repetition. But, yes, but as something that hypnotizes. And for that, you mustn't move around too much, make contrasts, or rush things.
Clear water, Narcissus, and Die schöne Müllerin 15:50 Which movement of the scherzo is he talking about? Oh no, the last one, which is very long. There you go. And the French performer takes a very long tempo. Here, I'm going much faster. Yes, yes, quite right. I'm speeding through a bit. So where does that leave us? With this kind of calm, still river that is not a torrent, not a cascade, not the...
16:22 the surge of the island, of Hölderlin's Rhine. It's not that. Which refuses to be hemmed in by its banks, which tears them apart. It's not that. Quite the opposite. Hypnosis. I'll keep the metaphor of hypnosis linked to clear water. Yes. Since I was talking earlier about the trout, which requires limpid water. So, it really is the water of a river, of the hinterland.
16:53 It's not the water of muddy, marshy deltas. It's not that. It's not Wagner. It's not impure. It's not the convergence of a heap of superimposed things. No. And besides, that fits with the primitivist side of the Volkslied. The utterly simple song. So, where was I? I mean there's something like a deliverance and a danger at the same time.
17:26 It's that the water is so clear that there's a risk of doing as Narcissus did. Yes. That is, coming so close that you no longer see where the water's mirror is, it's so transparent, and you lose your life there. I mean this quite literally, because the lied cycle, the admirable cycle of Die schöne Müllerin. Yes. Ends at the bottom of the torrent, well, at the bottom of the brook. Yes, quite right. The last song, the last lied — the fellow sings from the bottom of the brook, post-mortem.
18:01 Quite right. Right? After having followed him like a joyful outcast throughout the whole cycle. So, a transparency of prose that can trap the listener — even someone like Gould thinks it's simplistic, that it's... But in fact it's made to hypnotize the listener without jolting them in any way at the outset. So, coming back to... and to sum up.
18:32 He fits into sonata form like everyone else in his time — he wants to follow, and it's his sincere impulse, the Beethovenian model — but he can't help escaping from it, even within the work itself, by subverting sonata form with lied form. Yes, yes, exactly. And that's why in the impromptu I was talking about... No, but just on Die schöne Müllerin, I think the last song is... It's a hypnotic song par excellence. It's... To understand, it's Des Baches Wiegenlied. It's even a lullaby.
19:06 Yes, yes, quite right. The brook's lullaby. It's funny because that's also a Brahmsian title, a second parallel too. Brahms wrote an admirable one for women's voices. So, well, you're speaking the truth. A lullaby is made to lull to sleep, like a hypnotist. To lull someone to sleep, you don't make contrasts of tempi and you don't play an allegro furioso.
19:36 Yes, quite right. You don't use the rhythm of Don Giovanni when you want to lull someone to sleep. No, certainly not. Yes, yes, quite right. So, what's interesting is this subversion of the grand sonata form by the small lied form, which takes on considerable extension. So I calculated that in the Impromptu in F minor, still that same one, you had to wait until measure 64 for the lied to appear, but afterward it occupies practically three-quarters of the piece.
20:15 Just enough time for a quick reprise of the first theme, right before the end, and it ends on the lied, as if by chance. It never ends. It's utterly simple, it can be varied infinitely, it never ends. And, a second example, still in Schubert, the second-to-last sonata, which begins in a...
20:49 Sorry, I have to step outside the frame a bit — in a hyper-Beethovenian way. Yes, of course. Willful, and so on. But the finale is... And there, right up to the end, it doesn't stop being variations on that, doesn't it? Yes, yes, yes. Ah, there's a deliverance, that's for sure.
21:22 It's untied. There's no more conflict. It might be a loss compared to Beethoven, mind you. Right? But... It's a rondo, actually, isn't it? Individually, it's a deliverance. Yes, yes, of course. It's a rondo, I believe. But which, at the same time, there's a superposition of forms — at the same time it commits itself to the variation genre. Quite right. Because that's the theme and variations.
21:57 We recognize the theme at every moment. And there, from one end to the other, there will be no break in this tempo in the finale. In other words, he could say like Hölderlin at the moment of madness, nothing happens to me anymore. The conflicts are behind me. For better or worse, but... Yes. The die is cast. That's it. That's why I spoke of a deathly space.
Schubert, the man of the clearing 22:28 It could be a temptation, all right? And Schubert, and that's what I forgot to say last time, when you spoke of the impromptus, he's the man of the clearing. Much more than the man of the forest. He's the man of the clearing. He's someone who arrives... These aren't the paths that lead nowhere. These aren't the Holzwege. That's very Schumannian. I never forget, in Liederkreis No. 2, that extraordinary lied of a knight who dialogues with a Lorelei who bewitches him and condemns him to wander in the forest without ever being able to get out.
23:06 Yes. And that's not it. In Schubert, there's a clearing. And in that clearing, there's a ray of paradise. The finest example being the incredible second movement of the last, of the symphony called the Great, the one in C major. Yes. The one based on that marching theme. Well.
23:37 That's how it is, it starts again. Then, always the march riff. And all of a sudden, when we've come back to the tonic, sorry. All of a sudden, there's paradise.
24:11 There, there, in the clearing. Something completely unexpected. So that's Schubert, it's a dead end on the path, but not a dead end in the sense of hitting a wall. It's the furthest the isolated individual can go. And last time, we saw, and it's still... There's a side, but there's nothing. I long dwelt beneath vast porticoes, a kind of nostalgia for a lost paradise.
24:42 There's something like that speaking. Yes. Though we saw, and we were right to see it, that even in that apparent, in that apparently paradisiacal former life, it's deceptive because there was already a painful secret that made me languish. Yes, yes. That's the last verse. Of course. Even in that former life, what use are the slaves who cooled my brow with their palm fronds, whose only care was to deepen the painful secret that made me...
25:18 So there's already a worm in the fruit in the former life. I was thinking more of... That's where I lived amid calm voluptuousness, in the midst of waves, of hopes... Oh yes, yes. Oh yes, as a spectacle, it's paradisiacal. But the subject doesn't see his expectation fulfilled. He keeps his infinity unsatisfied. Yes, yes, that's true. Admirable. Yes, I understand well. We find again the Faustian moment that's worth a little century.
The Midsummer night turns into a brawl in fugue form 25:49 So there, what you're saying about the Great Symphony, that's indeed it, it appears, it's an apparition. It's almost a mirage, in fact. Yes, so there he does reach the end of his quest. But for no one, for himself alone and in a clearing. Yes, yes. It's terrible. Yes, yes. So, in contrast to that, I'll come back to it, but I'll move to the other pole, that is, to this incredible thing that happens musically. In the action too, but musically, essentially, in the second act of the Mastersingers.
26:27 The dream, here too, it could be Schubert, good grief, a June night, the smell of the lime trees smelling so good on June evenings, as everyone knows, since Rimbaud. June 21st, the eve of Johannistag, Saint John's Day, so, when the singing contest must take place. That night, we think of Hölderlin's admirable nocturne Brot und Wein, where the market rests, where the merchant, at home, weighs profits and losses.
27:02 There's a kind of serenity very rare in Hölderlin, and of nocturnal quality, even rarer for him, where one hears the fountains dying away in the distance, well anyway, a serenade vaguely in the moonlight. And there we are. Second act, it begins like that. And then there's a serenade, a real one, except it turns to the burlesque, I'll go quickly, almost to farce, or rather to farce, not even almost.
27:34 And the... the racket made by Beckmesser singing off-key with his lute under the window of the woman he thinks is Elisabeth but who is only her maid. Plus, the mallet blows from Sachs who, every time he makes a mistake, bang, makes him pay for having censured the young man. So, by pretending to work on his shoes rather late, all of this, of course, wakes up first one, then another, and all of a sudden the whole town is up in arms.
28:12 It's a German story. Good grief, it was set up to be paradise, the calmest thing possible. Right? And now the serpent is in the earthly paradise. German quarrels, it starts. Ah, but wait, but they really fight, you should see it. Yes. But it's incredible. Everyone, it's a saloon brawl. No, no, no, as if it were in a movie. Yes. Where everyone throws their punches, their bloody nose, etc. Yes.
28:42 And the night watchman has to arrive, as if by chance. We're indeed German, unseen, unpunished. Yes. When he arrives, he says, well, it seemed to me I heard some noise, there's no one left, everyone's gone back into their little Häuschen, there. But what a metaphor for German history, what a metonymy, sorry, in concentrated form of German history. And at the moment silence returns, spreads out.
29:12 So there, with an almost Schubertian purity, with a sensual voluptuousness besides, the admirable theme of the May night. And a fugue, in fact. No, but that's the brawl. Yes, that's true, that's the brawl. No, but Wagner's stroke of perverse genius was to choose, for the total chaos where everyone is hitting everyone else, the most rigorous form, the fugue. Yes, that's it, yes. And what a fugue, a fugue with multiple subjects.
29:45 Exactly, yes. Which uses the material of the serenade. A nice square, very popular thing, all that, with shrieking, howling, women whose bottoms get pinched, it's appalling.
30:15 All that, in a form, in the same form as the Art of Fugue. Yes, yes, quite so, that's certain. A fugue that bears its name very badly because it's perhaps the most rigid form, in fact, ultimately, in music, well, the most severe, in any case. We're far from the schoolboy's flight. It's funny because that makes me think, I'm leaving the classical repertoire entirely to move to jazz, but it makes me think of a title with those wordplays that the great jazzmen have the secret of, especially the composers when they give a name to their theme like, I don't know, Boplicity, to say complicity and Bop at the same time.
30:51 I'm thinking of Bud Powell who wrote Fugue. Oh yes, Fugue. It's almost Fugue in my opinion. You understood. There's a superimposition of Fugue, of Tempus Fugue. Oh yes, Tempus Fugue, yes, that's true. That's very good. Fugue. Oh yes, very good. Dominique, we can't see you anymore, but well, the important thing is we can hear you. It's secondary, but there it is. That's true, there it is.
31:21 On the other hand, now, there's no camera anymore. I don't know what I did. So, no, sorry to bother you with this. No, no, but from time to time, it goes away, it comes back. So, wait, I'm going to put the outgoing participant back. It shouldn't be contradictory. It says outgoing participant. Hi, I'm the assistant, let me... So, darn, the assistant will set it aside. Let's go to the left, camera. I shouldn't even have told you, sorry. I haven't even done the... hear it.
A mediating act that contains three centuries of music 31:51 I'm holding the... filter. I remember where you were. So how come I can't find it? Ah, I think it's good now. It's fine, right? Hmm. So, there, is it good for the framing or for the sound? Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you very well. No problem. There. I can see you well. So, there, I'm starting again from this moment at the end. We can no longer, we can no longer, mediator.
32:24 I mean by that that we're in the second act. There are always three acts, Wagner. So, the second act is always the middle. And it's the one where the irreversible action happens, incidentally, every time. In Tristan, which is truly the nocturnal counterpart of the solar gaiety of the Mastersingers, it was written at roughly the same period, that is, during an immense intermission when he set the Ring aside to take it up again years later, it's still an incredible story, all that. Yes, it's an immense switch and spin.
32:54 that's it, it's between what? It's between the Valkyrie and Siegfried? Between Siegfried, Siegfried. That is, he left, he says in the same thing, I left my Siegfried in the forest, still a clearing, with the birds there. Yes, that's it. He was fine there, so I left him there because I had other worries. There's Tristan, there's his passion, the impasse with Mathilde Wesendonck, he goes to console himself in Venice. And then afterward, being properly Greek, I mean in the aesthetic sense, you don't leave the audience on tragedy, you end on comedy.
33:31 And the Mastersingers comes after Tristan. Of course, when he comes back after Twilight of the Gods, there's a suppleness of writing brought by these two absolute masterpieces which are the favorites of those who are not unconditional Wagnerians, namely Tristan and the Mastersingers. The Mastersingers, yes, right, where the contribution precisely of counterpoint, incidentally, remains an irreversible achievement. I understand, last time, that it's a mania of great composers at the end. Yes, to finish with counterpoint.
34:01 There, there. And right up to Parsifal. So the prelude to the third act of Parsifal is a fugue. So a mediating work par excellence, the second act, and moreover, with this kind of retrospective summary of centuries of the history of music. What Nietzsche saw in Peoples and Fatherlands, in Beyond Good and Evil, that famous passage which should serve as an example to all those who make record sleeves where he presents the work, where he says, that famous passage which ends by saying this phrase, Nietzsche has the secret: 'This work expresses marvelously well what I think of the Germans.'
34:52 'They are of the day before yesterday and of the day after tomorrow. They are still not of today.' And he says how much force, how much sap and climate mingle in this music. It has the audacity to make us believe there are three centuries of music that are not outdated, and moreover, it wins the bet. It's all in there. There's clearly a homage, a stylistic exercise by Wagner saying, 'You see, I know how to do all that.'
35:22 Gregorian chant, I'm thinking of the night watchman's monody, who sings a kind of chant that comes from the depths of the ages. Yes, yes, of course. Tristan's horn too. Yes, exactly. It goes from old modalism, if I prefer, if we prefer, all the way to chords, to orchestral passages that foreshadow the Russian ruptures, really Prokofiev and even Stravinsky, the scene with Beckmesser and Sachs in the third act.
36:06 And between the two, this fugue. So, that's where I'd like to start with this apparent history of music, I mean, apparently linear, that is, with a work that contains almost everything holding together, which will give rise to today's music and which plunges into the deepest archaisms. That's why I was shining the spotlight on this incredible ending of the second act, the very last second where, after this appalling din of the fugue and the general brawl in this little square that had seemed so far from all conflicts.
Sachs's meditation and Wagnerian nationalism 36:47 That's fine for the French, conflicts, strikes, class struggles. We Germans, there are geraniums at the windows, there's a little fountain murmuring, which looks the same whether in Frankfurt, Forchheim, etc. And then, there's an eternity in there, and in short, Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott and we sleep peacefully. And no, it's a general saloon brawl. Yes, quite so. Ein feste Burg gave us the Thirty Years' War in Europe.
37:17 And there it is, there it is. And I remember my father-in-law, may the earth rest lightly on him, who was still an ace of the Luftwaffe, telling me, as his sole explanation for the Nazi period, we clearly see the German political misery, bravo, he told me, Tommy, it's as if a gang of gangsters had taken over the country. Obviously. That's convenient, yes, that whitewashes everything else. So, the second act of the Mastersingers, it's a bit like that.
37:48 And the greatness lies in the fact that the third act, when the curtain rises, so the continuation, the continuation of the action, is Sachs's famous meditation, where he says to himself, good grief, but what happened last night? But what happened... Everyone was friends, what happened? That's where he says Wahn, is that it? Yes, Überall Wahn. Überall Wahn, yes. So there, it rises straight to evangelical depth, vanity of vanities, well, biblical, sorry, not evangelical.
38:22 Yes, if you make a good pun on Wahn, you mean madness, but yes, vanity, yes. Yes, Wahn, yes, that's true, quite so. Of course, and madness is Wahnsinn. Yes, that's it. It all holds together. But, above all, on the neo-pagan side, in parallel, wasn't it a Kobold that passed by and sowed the mess? He says that exactly, Sachs. And we hear the Kobold in the orchestration with flutes and instruments that come to parasitize the beautiful theme of Saint John's.
38:54 So, it goes far. I'm listening with passion, but there too, I'm a bit under hypnosis and I've lost your structural opposition between Schubert on one side and the Mastersingers on the other. Maybe I... Between Schubert's pure lyricism, which is a marvel, well, no one has ever done better in pure lied, but which is a dead end. Precisely because we can't do better. Maybe Schubert went further than anyone, but ended up at a clearing.
39:32 Not to resolve a collective conflict, not to come save the Grail community in the absence of the spear, not quite like in the finale of the Ninth. It's not the great resolution of conflicts. Right? It's a paradise... It's an apparition, yes. It's like that. There. Quite so. It's the same, in the Mastersingers, it's chaos that appears.
40:03 So, precisely, I'll answer your question. Whereas Wagner makes the synthesis of Wagnerian dramatism, the... Beethovenian. Beethovenian, thanks. Because after all, we're in dramatic art. There, we're not in Schubert. Yes, yes. We're in an opera with a drama, an action. The action is who will win the singing contest and marry Elisabeth, a summit clearly. Yes, yes, yes. It's a lovestruck-girl structure. Yes, yes. Will he marry, won't he marry, it's the lovestruck-girl structure par excellence. It's the ordinary elevated to the sublime. Of course. It's serious, the seriousness. But there's an action with stakes and before a whole crowd.
40:35 Of course. There's a harangue at the end, the famous harangue where he says, watch out, the enemy is watching at the borders, revere the German masters, and after all, let the Reich perish, all that, as long as German art survives. German art, yes. Dem folgt deutscher Gesang. That's really... Yes. It's not even... it's the conclusion of Patmos, there. Yes, exactly. Quite so. No, no, but it's incredible that Wagner, who in general never missed an opportunity to display his nationalism, especially toward the end, of nationalism, of music embittered at having been snubbed in Paris by that Jew Meyerbeer.
41:13 Yes, that explains something. The essence of his antisemitism, when you look closely at the chronology, comes from there. He wasn't at all like that. On the contrary, he used to invoke Geyer, his stepfather, who was Jewish. Yes, moreover, yes, that's affairs... Many say he might have been his natural father, to add to the delirium... Yes, to add to the antisemitic delirium, yes, that's... Oh no, no, but Nietzsche makes a very precise and perfidious allusion. Nietzsche knows Wagner's private life well. Yes. Since he's one of those who was present at the dictation to Cosima of Mein Leben.
41:46 No, no, but be careful. Oh yes, yes, right. Oh yes, so in Mein Leben, what was published is different from what actually happens. Nietzsche made a pun for the initiated, but not all readers will understand, but you, as a fine linguist, you'll get it. When he says that if we don't have the strength to be an Adler, we can always try to be a Geyer. Geyer is the name of the Jewish stepfather. Yes, and especially Adler is the noble bird par excellence, besides. There it is, and the vulture, with its beak like that, is the Jew's nose.
42:18 But of course, that's it. Which shows well that in fact they were joking among antisemites. So, the anti-antisemitic Nietzsche needs to be reexamined. There. So, since we're on this topic, let's settle it, let's lance an abscess, really, which is festering, it's all those who don't know much about music but think they know Nietzsche, that is, basically, the French postmoderns. The French philosophical school of the Cold War, in Heidegger's shadow, thinks itself Nietzsche's sunshine, basically.
Nietzsche against his postmodern readers 42:53 Yes, that's for sure. Basically, I've summed up, basically, everything from the immediate postwar period up to Derrida. Yes, passing through the Deleuzes, I won't even mention Heidegger. Up to Onfray, yes, there, but honestly, up to Onfray, alas, because Derrida still... Yes, there, of course, of course. No, but I didn't even want to name him, because still, Deleuze is a philosopher who knows philosophy well. Derrida had a great merit, he read others and he was loyal, which isn't the case with Onfray. That's true, that's true.
43:23 But no, we're not going to compare an anti-philosophy and philosophers whom nobody talks about because the ones everyone talks about, they don't know them. Yes, they don't master them. Have you ever seen him reflect on the supreme genera in late Platonism, or on the relation between subject and predicate in logic, never. No, it's simpler to warm up La Mettrie. No, no, there it is, there it is.
43:53 It makes me think, I'll finish with Onfray on this, of that magnificent quip from Hegel in the preface to the Phenomenology when Hegel says, there are some who resort to a very expedient method. They pile up on the field a great mass of materials, and by dealing especially in oddities and curiosities, they give themselves the air of possessing everything else too. Yes, that's it. There, end of the parenthesis, we could go on. On the other hand, in the shadow of Heidegger-Nietzsche and the Heidegger who rereads Nietzsche, it's Heidegger who prepares the most reactionary vision of Nietzsche, because the real Nietzsche is hyper-reactionary and its opposite on the very next page, I mean.
44:34 Yes, that's it. The finest example being his relationship to Parsifal, where I have trouble convincing the Nietzscheans that this is indeed a text by him – I have to give the reference, because I don't think... it's the famous letter he writes to Peter Gast and to his sister when he finally discovers the first notes of the score of Parsifal, after having attacked it and torn it to shreds when he had only read the text. Yes, out of anti-Christianism, in fact. There you go, there you go.
45:04 And yes, he ends up telling his sister: this music tells me, deep within myself, things that go well beyond my usual fantasies, and it teaches me lessons in a courage, the greatest courage there has been in these last centuries, that of Christianity. It's unbelievable! We're in 1887, very close to madness. It's the late Nietzsche. It's not exactly madness. His greatness as a thinker of the right is to have understood that socialism was within Christianity, and to have gone all the way, right into martyrdom.
45:37 There you go! At the same time, that means he understood Christianity. But you've grasped it all. He understood its subversive force. And it took Wagner to make him understand the shift, in the end. And that foreshadows the later Nazi formula that the enemy isn't the Jew, or the Jew Jesus, or the Bolshevik Lenin. It's Judeo-Bolshevism. Yes, yes. That's exactly what you just stated. It's the same struggle.
46:07 Yes, yes. It's both brilliant and terrifying at the same time. But often it's precisely the greatest for its reactionary character. It's because he went all the way in that great troubled reaction. Because of the madness, too, by the way. He himself admits: I say nonsense. Well, there it is. What his disciples don't admit. For them he's a great debunker, a demystifier, whereas the first one mystified is himself. But exactly, of course. Yes, especially where it's very funny is when he says: you talk about the superman, but for me the superman is much more Cesare Borgia than some kind of sage. Of course.
46:37 But of course. But he got saddled with that. And there he answered somewhere: the superman is a good dancer. A good dancer. There you go. You who are a great Latinist, you know that saltator means something like a debaucher in Latin. Yes, quite the contrary. And so we find Borgia again. Yes, that's it. Because Cicero in the Pro Milone is furious – well, he pretends to be furious while more or less admitting it, saying that our opponents call Milo a saltator.
47:07 Well, still, he's someone honorable, with a wife and children. A saltator is really the sort of guy, a bit like Alcibiades at the end of the Symposium, who arrives supported by flute-girls. Right? Yes, that's true. With garlands of ivy around his head and somewhat drunk, a bit tipsy. So yes, as you say, the superman is rather that – lightness advancing with dove-like steps, and not the parachutist's step in a military parade. Still. Yes, but there's ferocity too.
47:37 Sorry? There's ferocity on the other hand. I didn't hear. There's ferocity. Oh no, no, no, but there's even an apology for cruelty. Yes, that's it. If one isn't cruel, it's because one hasn't yet understood the step one must take to gain access – but of course. Well. So I wanted to lance this abscess. Those who play the freethinker, as they said in the 18th century, going back to the 17th century with the libertines, saying that Nietzsche freed us from Judeo-Christian guilt – first of all, that's a paradox.
What makes Nazi barbarism singular 48:16 I don't want to defend Christianity. As you said very well, what's really being targeted is socialism behind all that – the common point, the invariant, staying within Nietzsche, is slave discourse. At the starting point there's the Commune. Slave discourse, but of course. Of course. The starting point for his whole generation of petty bourgeois, their obsession, is the rise of the working class over the course of that century. It's June '48, then afterward. They went and emptied the countryside for that.
48:47 That's it. Exactly. In England they said: it's that, or else you go die at sea on a boat. What's it called? The enclosures. Yes. So this story goes far, this business of music. It's a whole history in itself. And so the fact that Wagner opens the door a crack, suddenly, onto the monstrous, onto chaos that can erupt where you least expect it.
49:19 Because, good God, what makes Nazi barbarity irreducible to any comparison with the past, I mean, because appalling crimes, atrocities, are not lacking in this vale of tears, as the Bible calls human history. I mean, when you look at the details of the atrocities committed by the Assyrians – I'm going back to deep antiquity – I don't know, the wars of religion, tongues and lips cut off, the Mongols, it's appalling.
49:53 I'm not talking about the fantasized stuff, like Chinese torture, which is nothing to sneeze at either, I mean quite a lot of fantasy there too. When you see all that, when you see the bloody side too, blood ready to spurt in Japanese hieratic ritual in film, for example – and if the Japanese world is a hyper-coded world, rigid like that, very rigid, a bit like Erich von Stroheim in La Grande Illusion, I'm making the parallel Japan-Germany on purpose, the alliance – if it's rigid, unlike the Chinese, who are always a bit chaotic, a bit – Arnaud, Arnaud Le Gall, told me that in China, when a guy falls off his bike in a city, the whole street bursts out laughing; in Japan, everyone is stunned – and the hieratic, hyper-coded side of relationships is made to drain off a violence that's just waiting for an occasion to break loose. I'm thinking of the admirable – I'll close my Japanese parenthesis – I'm thinking of the admirable film by Kobayashi, the director, called Harakiri, where it's clear that blood must spurt onto that immaculately white tatami, and you find again
51:03 the colors of the Japanese flag. Yes, well spotted, exactly. There you go. So aside from that, it's the difference between a society that comes from feudalism, unlike China, of course. So it's not lacking, right up to Nazism, because there are some who try to whitewash Nazism by saying, you know, we've seen worse in history. No – what's despicable is that it erupts precisely – I'll come back to this – in the midst of the peace of civilization, of material comfort, of running water and electricity, and of panzers, of visionaries and tractors and agricultural machinery, at the heart of the country of poets and heroes. That's really it. Well, agreed, the scandal is that – that's where you see the total failure of Voltaire compared to Rousseau, because Voltaire sincerely believed – yes, sincerely – that the progress of science and technology was enough to civilize humanity. The problem was actually technical, or rather cognitive.
52:13 We didn't know; now we know, it's fine. Because Rousseau, it only takes a Friday – he enslaves him, in fact, as soon as he arrives, it's funny there – it's Robinson, pure chance, right, I'm alone on my island, but as soon as there's a relation to the other, it's master-slave, that's it. One might have thought that on this island there could still be arrangements, one could say, listen, you take the north half, I take the south half, we trade. Yes, that's it. We're not going to – it's clear, we understand what it's about, it's not hard: I'm English, I'm Anglo-Saxon, I'm master of the world. That's it. I'm the Anglo-Saxon, I'm master of the world, and what's more, I name you – I name you, and you're a savage. There you go, exactly – one day among others. Yes, yes, there you go. Well, listen, I don't know, I think we can leave it there for this session. Yes, because I have a little appointment with my – my Icelander, actually, but in an hour. But I think it's important to see how I intend to approach this history, that is, each time by positioning myself somewhere I can go back to retroactively afterward.
Endless melody, a synthesis of Schubert and Beethoven 53:23 back to Gregorian chant – we practically had an occasion for that with that good night watchman, quite so – and what I want to say is: what do you mean by this structural opposition between Schubert and Wagner in relation to – somewhere what you're showing first picks up the opposition of the lyrical and the dramatic, that is, which was originally the opposition of Schubert and Beethoven. Let's not forget that Wagner is the author of a text on Beethoven, and that for Wagner, it begins with Beethoven – the Bayreuth festival has to be able to begin with the Ninth, the curtain-raiser of the festival must be a performance of the Ninth. That's what will happen in '51, when the festival reopens after its period of penance, under Furtwängler's baton, and that's the fantastic reference recording, with Schwarzkopf as Elisabeth – for once, I say for once, because she sang very few Wagnerian roles, she wasn't foolish, she took care of her voice, and Elisabeth is less demanding than Isolde or Elsa or Brünnhilde. So that's it.
54:33 My answer to this question: on one hand it picks up the relation of Schubert to Beethoven, but it makes a synthesis of it – it seemed irreconcilable earlier, Schubert and Beethoven, whereas here Wagner tends toward the endless melody – that's his relation to Schubert, that the essential thing is still melody, and Wagner keeps repeating all melodies, to the point that in Parsifal one gets the impression that it's a kind of continuous melody from one end to the other. There's that, but it's no longer, as I said earlier, it's a permanent chant, C-H-A-N-T, and no longer a song, I don't know, an ending, a cadence. There you go, and thank you, thank you, because the permanent recitative, this synthesis that Wagner carries out, that's not found in Schubert – of the arioso form and the recitative form, which will break with the tradition of the recitativo secco, as they say in Italian. And Nietzsche, who always has an attentive ear, but at the same time
55:43 a slanderous one, about Wagner, will say that in Wagner the recitative is damp, he's not able to make a decisive cut, and we find the metaphor of the stream – there you go – and he turns it into something pejorative, whereas it's precisely the definitive loosening of the melos, the endless melody. Yes, yes, that's true, and when you see the extraordinary suppleness that, probably as nowhere else, in the Meistersinger, because of the mixing of the lyrical, the comic, the farcical, the buffoonish, the sublime – I'm thinking of the baptismal quintet – I mean, it implies a music capable of adapting to all its habitus, rather than a Beethovenian, dramatic, dialectical resolution. One could say what you're pointing to is a sort of dilution, in the very aquatic sense of the term, in fact. Exactly, it's a melodic resolution. There you go, that's it, but a melody that is no longer – let's continue the metaphors we started with – the one embodied
56:53 by the limpid stream that flows like a song, giving the flowers of the skin to the current of streams, but it's the flowing of the sea in every sense, oceanic – that's it, the endless melody that has acquired such suppleness that it becomes omnidirectional, a bit like – it's an image I borrow from those who defended the logic of dodecaphony against their opponents, I'm not settling the debate, I'm just noting this comparison, which is brilliant – let's take dance: the dancer must always take into account – this makes me think of Kleist's text on the marionette theater – a privileged direction, that of gravity; he must always – it's a tension, there you go – and at the same time that gives a logic to everything he does, there's a center of gravity, the crossing of the medians, as they say in geometry for a triangle, which he must always be careful to respect, otherwise he falls flat on his face in public. Still, what about someone
An omnidirectional music, the bourgeoisie, and civil society 58:06 who would dance in a space capsule – you see the common point with what I was saying about Wagner, the omnidirectional aspect: there's no longer tonality, that is, a privileged direction. But somewhere it's also a metaphor for 19th-century bourgeois society, that is, under Beethoven we still have the revolutionary bourgeoisie asserting itself, concluding, deciding, in fact, and even imposing itself in a certain way, whereas here there's a kind of headlong flight, because in the end that headlong flight is going to lead to 1914 – well, the whole 19th century in the end leads to that, that is, it's a bit like that book, The Sleepwalkers, that is, at some point we're swept along, in fact, into a – it makes me think of a novel written in the 1950s, I've forgotten the author's name, not very well known besides, but I haven't forgotten the title, because it was well chosen – The Estuaries of Death, yes, that's it – this whole movement that begins with the counter-revolution, that begins with Burke and Schelling and company, and the destruction of reason, leads to the two greatest massacres of all time. That's it, of course. But careful, I mean, we can't say that the Meistersinger prepares for that. Yes and no.
59:16 There's also the contradiction of that, in any case there's the symptom, it's not – there you go – and the truth of art is to express it. There you go, that's it, exactly. And above all it's a value judgment, and above all this omnidirectional side is a promise to humanity of a world where there isn't – where it's to each according to his needs, to each according to his capacities, to each according to his needs. If we think back to what you were saying last time, what's at stake is preserving the individual's lyricism within a society, not denying it through collectivization. I'm glad you bring that up, there couldn't be a better ending to our discussion: the unavoidable problem of our time, not just of these last few years but of our time, which is now becoming exasperated, is the problem of synthesizing civil society and the state. That's exactly it. Yes, in point of philosophy, that's what's at stake: civil society must ultimately prevail.
1:00:26 That's the omnidirectional aspect: after all, everyone can go in every direction. Yes, of course, but without that being at the expense of the other, that is, it's not the wild beast – civil society must not remain the wild beast, but that's it, there you go. And in fact what you're illustrating is the fantastic development of musical material, also of productive forces, ultimately musical ones, which are also tied to the development of civil society and the emergence of the bourgeoisie, with its good sides, its bad sides, well, its revolutionary sides and its genuinely troubling sides – with its revolutionary sides because there's a revolution of productive forces that we see even in the musical material itself, that is, an increasing technicality, in fact, in the use of this melisma, well, as you say, which goes as far as – we're not going to redo the trial of civil society, but it's what, it's the moment par excellence of the middle between the extremes of the family and the state; civil society is the moment where the best can happen, but also the worst, like everything that belongs to the order of the middle. And besides, like all music, it's also a matter of tension and resolution.
1:01:36 well, all Western music, at least, and what we see here is really a tension toward absolute lyricism that will require some kind of manner of resolution. So maybe it's Schoenberg who will provide it, or express it, or Debussy – what happens afterward, we can discuss the solutions that have been proposed, but we can't deny that this is indeed the problem confronted by all the great advances of Debussy and Schoenberg, passing through the Russians, all the advances of so-called contemporary music, it's no accident – or even jazz, in the end. That reminds me of jazz, actually – what I reproach in this by-product, let's throw it in the trash, of jazz, that certain forms of rock, of hard rock, are – is precisely that there's no longer this alternation you're talking about, of tension and release. Yes, that's it. You listen to heavy metal, right, it's just more you bang on my head, the better it gets. Yes, that's an illusion, it's the music of the baseball bat with which young people – it's the music of the machine
1:02:46 massacring a black student walking down the street. Yes, that's it, it's dehumanized music, since it's the music of the machine, we take pleasure in dehumanizing ourselves. You're linking up with Clouscard's concept of mechanical agitation. Yes, listen, there you go, that's it, and it even comes back to the 1844 Manuscripts, it's alienation. There you go. So there, civil society – we have to redo its trial, but not to absolve it or to condemn it, but to show what the moment of freedom is, the moment where freedom can be obtained, can be won, for each man, for each woman, but this freedom – freedom is not the good, it can invest itself in the best as much as in the worst. That's perfect, I understand it better, it's really a genuine philosophical conclusion to this history of music. Exactly, it's a philosophy lesson all the same, thank you, I feel it better now, the examples are perfect. So there is indeed a return to Bach, especially in the late Wagner, but without the metric constraint of Baroque music – freed of that constraint, we're no longer in feudalism. Yes, that's true, they're trapeze artists
1:03:56 working without a net, yes, with the risks, the risks and perils, there you go. Great, well, listen, I'll let you go to your appointment, and thank you, it was fascinating. Well, listen, it's me who thanks you. Well, I hope it didn't wander off too much in every direction, but I love you.